Curse

iriyabran · Jun 11, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

wow cry me a river
stop talking nonsense

I would, but when tears/water hit my face I melt. Excuse me I have to find the wizard of oz.

IF you can't explain whats so nonsense of saying that

Spellcasters have advantages, and then not saying how the statement is false are you any better then a troll?

at least i know how to quote : (
plague touch lol, remedy signet, signet of malice, sight beyond sight, antidote signet, mending touch is still modern bdw
u can easily keep up with blinds and even remove an aditional condition
and also makes it easier for the monk
have u tried removing daze as a caster while sins and wars are jumping on your head
have u been knocked down as a caster and you can't do shit
a warrior can take u out with 3 hits cause u also have "advantageous" AL...
a good warrior that is... cause i've seen warriors who do silly amout of damage WITHOUT blind....
this is team game if u can't balance your team's build don't blame the balance of the game
and don't just rely on the monk
even a good monk will fall if the team doesn't protect him!
and blind is just one of the defensive skills against melee which as everything else can be removed/countered (except weapons lol ...where i would like to say there's not a better condition cleaner than a rit with cheap quick weapons and Wielder's Remedy equipped i had so fun playing that not too long ago)
this thread is almost as sh*ty as the "45 sec recharge prot spirit" lol

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

Have you ever wondered why there so many anti-melee countermeasures, as well as why top guild teams go to such lengths to keep their warriors clean of them? It's because the damage they can do outclasses almost anything else, even with the extra effort.

QFT.
Now, how to bring this post up to 12 characters in length...

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xethrion

My Dragon Slash warrior pwns Jade Bows faster than any ele can. A constant string of +42 dmg skills on 33% IAS literally means I'm hitting 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 continuously til he drops, when FGJ! is active. I'd like to see any caster beat that.

sure u can hit them with lotsa hits when they arent under lightning reflexes but ur still going to do little damage 20-30 a hit on skill useage and lower on non skill usages, I doubt it could out-damage an Armour ignoring Obsidian Earth Ele.

or a Vampiric Spirit Blood spike Necro etc. etc.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Sophita... you know how +damage works, right?
How does a Dragon slasher (+42 Galrath, +42 Dragon Slash etc.) only hit for 20-30 on skill usage?
Or... are you truly ignorant?

Btw...Earth eles trying to kill with armour-ignoring damage are fairly lame. There's Ob. Flame, which racks up exhaustion like nobody's business, and there's the Crystal spells, which are point-blank (tiny AoE, to boot) on a horrid recharge. Warriors > Earth eles for armour-ignoring damage.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Sophita... you know how +damage works, right?
How does a Dragon slasher (+42 Galrath, +42 Dragon Slash etc.) only hit for 20-30 on skill usage?
Or... are you truly ignorant?

Well i must be completely Ignorant then despite having a Warrior of such a build because Jades im pretty sure have AL 80 atleast which cuts the damage u deal to them quite considerably, even when using an attack skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Btw...Earth eles trying to kill with armour-ignoring damage are fairly lame. There's Ob. Flame, which racks up exhaustion like nobody's business, and there's the Crystal spells, which are point-blank (tiny AoE, to boot) on a horrid recharge. Warriors > Earth eles for armour-ignoring damage.

Youve clearly nevered tried an AoE Earth Ele. Anyone with an once of sence can make it work, u cast Flame only now and again (mainly to finish a target off) the poin blank range is no problem with a good defensive skill, and while the skills are recharging ur free to use Whirlwind and Aftershock and other such skills. My Ele can do Dunes Bonus the propper way with no problems with atleast 2 and a half minutes left on the clock (using henchies).

Stormlord Alex · Jun 11, 2007, 02:38 PM // 14:38

You've obviously no clue about how attack skills work...
Long story short, +dmg on attack skills bypasses armour.
A dragon slasher hitting his skills on recharge will easily deal more armour-ignoring damage than an earth ele, especially one being cautious with the Flame.

Btw, I have tried playing an earth ele... I quite like earth, too. However, there's not much earth does damage-wise that Fire can't do better. I quite like the melee hate aspects of it though, Eruption's pretty good

Div · Jun 11, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

...
In terms of 1 on 1...

I stopped reading there. Who cares what happens when it's a 1v1 situation? GW is about how classes interact with each other, and not about 1v1 matchups.

The Last Anthem · Jun 11, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I hate warriors. I never play mine unless I'm farming and I NEVER use them in pve. I take 2-3monks 1mm rest nukers and sometimes an earth elly, why? Because it completely rapes everything in pve.
In pvp.. specifically gvg, I usually monk..if a warrior gets on me he NEVER does anything to me unless its a spike including casters.. balanced stance+disciplined stance > a warrior

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

You've obviously no clue about how attack skills work...
Long story short, +dmg on attack skills bypasses armour.
A dragon slasher hitting his skills on recharge will easily deal more armour-ignoring damage than an earth ele, especially one being cautious with the Flame.

Btw, I have tried playing an earth ele... I quite like earth, too. However, there's not much earth does damage-wise that Fire can't do better. I quite like the melee hate aspects of it though, Eruption's pretty good

Well your entitled your ur opinion ofc, but imo an AL ignoring Ele will always outdamage a Warrior except on a target with < 60AL

.

Unless Anet has changed the +xx damage on attacks without me noticing (in which case ill stand corrected on such a thing) the AL will still take effect, but that doesnt change my opinion that an Ele or anyother Caster for that matter will always outdamage a warrior. This is not worked out from any chart or such like but worked out from actual game experience. As i said before if this wasnt the Case The Cookie Cutter builds wouldnt have a Nuker a monk and a tank it would just have a monk and a Warrior.

Cacheelma · Jun 11, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

You lose all credibility when you put dervish in just "melee" while deadly art assassin is a "caster".

Dervish would be a caster as well by your logic. Otherwise, the classes are 5 "physical" attackers and 5 "magic" users. Quite balanced, no?

Cebe · Jun 11, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

You lose all credibility when you put dervish in just "melee" while deadly art assassin is a "caster".

Dervish would be a caster as well by your logic. Otherwise, the classes are 5 "physical" attackers and 5 "magic" users. Quite balanced, no?

But a deadly arts assassin isn't melee...so what is it?

I came across one for the first time this weekend in AB...just stands there and casts spells (deadly arts spells, that is)...I don't get how that isn't a caster. He wasn't too bad...and who knows, if I wasn't playing as Rit maybe he would have won.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 11, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Well your entitled your ur opinion ofc, but imo an AL ignoring Ele will always outdamage a Warrior except on a target with < 60AL

.

Unless Anet has changed the +xx damage on attacks without me noticing (in which case ill stand corrected on such a thing) the AL will still take effect, but that doesnt change my opinion that an Ele or anyother Caster for that matter will always outdamage a warrior.

Not worth the time to explain how many ways you're wrong. Hell, you even contradicted yourself with "will always outdamage a warrior" and "except on a target".... Anyway, I'd love a legitimate example of another caster outdamaging a warrior.

I'll just leave you with an example. If eles outdamage warriors by such a large margin, why do almost none of the top guilds in GvG run eles for anything but flagrunning? Meanwhile, pretty much all of them run warriors for spiking people out and pressure. Does this mean nothing to you?

FalconDance · Jun 11, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

"How does the melee truly stack against smart casters who can stop them without them taking any damage from them."

Ummm, interrupt skills. By your own listing, a ranger is in the melee class and a good ranger can frustrate the hell out of a caster any day. In fact, when Lili is out, she usually fans her damage out (poison is good either before or after a base interrupt) to all the enemy casters so the warriors and ally casters have a more 'even' playing field. If you know your profession and have an understanding of the foe, you can make a well educated decision on which caster(s) need to be hit first and which can wait.

An efficient warrior can, if the party has an ele or other AoE caster, draw aggro around themselves providing an irresistable target. Dervishes are even better at it! 'Sins seem to do it by accident. Enemy (and some ally) casters are rather dim in that they seem to target the melee first (or at the same time as the healer) instead of the backline which will end up being the ones who cream their sorry arses en masse. Notice I said 'en masse'. The warriors/melee may (and do) mow down the foe, but casters can do it several at a time if fortunate in their melee group's aggro attempt.

Balance, grasshopper. I can (and have) take a warrior in solo and been victorious. I can (and have) take a caster in solo and been victorious. But it takes longer and requires attention to detail.

Other than that, to be quite honest, I cannot make any sense out of what you've been writing. Perhaps it's my fault, but your grammar and such is so poor that your (obviously thought out) arguments are too obscure.

Melee characters will have an easier time in certain parts of the game than casters and vice versa. That's why it's so important to have a balanced team - to fill those gaps - because you can bet that one part of a mission will have melee-'friendly' foe whilst another has caster-friendly.

~Falcon

Cebe · Jun 11, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

An efficient warrior can, if the party has an ele or other AoE caster, draw aggro around themselves providing an irresistable target. Dervishes are even better at it! 'Sins seem to do it by accident. Enemy (and some ally) casters are rather dim in that they seem to target the melee first (or at the same time as the healer) instead of the backline which will end up being the ones who cream their sorry arses en masse. Notice I said 'en masse'. The warriors/melee may (and do) mow down the foe, but casters can do it several at a time if fortunate in their melee group's aggro attempt.

This bit is the part that is particularly true to PvE at any rate. In PvP people don't have any hesitation to move out of an AoE if they have half a brain...whereas in PvE certain monsters seem to have too great an ego to move... Margonites...I adore Margonites. They just sit there being ground to dust by little grains of Sand. An entire group is often half dead by the time melee characters get to them.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 11, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Not worth the time to explain how many ways you're wrong. Hell, you even contradicted yourself with "will always outdamage a warrior" and "except on a target".... Anyway, I'd love a legitimate example of another caster outdamaging a warrior.

If you going to disgree with me, atleast make up a valid reason why not, I always walk around except when im sitting its not a contradiction is its part of the same statement

. a Contradiction would be. I never sit down. I sat down last week. "Except" is what makes it not a contradiction. Ok u want another example, how about a 55 monk using spoil victor on an Attaxe, even that 1 skill without using any others out damages a Warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

I'll just leave you with an example. If eles outdamage warriors by such a large margin, why do almost none of the top guilds in GvG run eles for anything but flagrunning? Meanwhile, pretty much all of them run warriors for spiking people out and pressure. Does this mean nothing to you?

And this is also the reason why lately theve been complaining Aegis chains are "overpowered".

Because there using Warriors and not using Casters that could easily ignore such enchants.

ensoriki · Jun 11, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

You lose all credibility when you put dervish in just "melee" while deadly art assassin is a "caster".

Dervish would be a caster as well by your logic. Otherwise, the classes are 5 "physical" attackers and 5 "magic" users. Quite balanced, no?

Basically a dervish spellcaster can only do 2 things
PBaoe, that is very weak, Heal with certain healing skills or Derv bomb which is PBaoe

If you want it in there fine but, how many people do that? How many people actually consider using a full PBaoe dervish who has to run up to people and hope they dont move when he activates that pbaoe that does 47 holy damage or 37 fire damage and burning for 2 seconds.
I put 2 sins because siins can cast spells or do melee. It depends on what you want. Theres not just a split of 10/5, because the skills they use depends
Range and melee were included as 1 so ranger and Paragon go under melee they are also with the melee dervish sin and Warrior/ Seems like 5 at first

But then theres Rit,necro,monk,ele,DA sin,Mesmer, PB aoe derv since you want to include them.
Sure theres more spell casters that doesn't really master however spell casters are able to cripple a melee character with much more ease. After all A blind melee character can't land that temple strike to daze if they miss.
___________________________________

Eles still have prejudice against them from how sad they use to be. People use them as flag runners because they are efficent at it. They can do the damage but the guilds don't want them too. Eles and warriors can easily take each others Position on the field if it was the FOTM to do it as it is now.

Quote:

Ummm, interrupt skills. By your own listing, a ranger is in the melee class and a good ranger can frustrate the hell out of a caster any day. In fact, when Lili is out, she usually fans her damage out (poison is good either before or after a base interrupt) to all the enemy casters so the warriors and ally casters have a more 'even' playing field. If you know your profession and have an understanding of the foe, you can make a well educated decision on which caster(s) need to be hit first and which can wait.

Sure they can but as many people want to tell me, even though I have put team examples up. There is a team. When you get the ranger blind your monk (or if monks dazed) then cures it and now with them blind you keep the blind bot going on them again.

Quote:

An efficient warrior can, if the party has an ele or other AoE caster, draw aggro around themselves providing an irresistable target. Dervishes are even better at it! 'Sins seem to do it by accident. Enemy (and some ally) casters are rather dim in that they seem to target the melee first (or at the same time as the healer) instead of the backline which will end up being the ones who cream their sorry arses en masse. Notice I said 'en masse'. The warriors/melee may (and do) mow down the foe, but casters can do it several at a time if fortunate in their melee group's aggro attempt.
Now people talk about High- end Pvp, High end Pvp won't be able to focus themselves properly? Sure theres HUman error, but when people say GvG and High-end pvp it seems its.
A) tossed arround lightly but saying its better then other arenas
B) Saying its really Strategic....getting ruined by silly mindgames for 30 seconds doesnt seem high end to me.

Balance, grasshopper. I can (and have) take a warrior in solo and been victorious. I can (and have) take a caster in solo and been victorious. But it takes longer and requires attention to detail.
Do you mean, you can be a warrior and beat a caster and vise versa? What kind of caster was this, Because Most casters who don't take some kind of defense don't seem to great to me. All around defense or defense against 1 person (blinding is 1 person Ward of Defense is all around) Would get to a warrior would it not?

Quote:

Well your entitled your ur opinion ofc, but imo an AL ignoring Ele will always outdamage a Warrior except on a target with < 60AL .

Unless Anet has changed the +xx damage on attacks without me noticing (in which case ill stand corrected on such a thing) the AL will still take effect, but that doesnt change my opinion that an Ele or anyother Caster for that matter will always outdamage a warrior

The thing is in terms of calculation....after a certain timeframe the warrior beats the ele. the exhaustion sets in and your useless, if I remember exhaustion stays even when you die would really suck having to wait to die only to find that you still have exhaustion while the warrior is pummeling you.

Well Im tired...typing...

Chicken Ftw · Jun 11, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

If you going to disgree with me, atleast make up a valid reason why not, I always walk around except when im sitting its not a contradiction is its part of the same statement

. a Contradiction would be. I never sit down. I sat down last week. "Except" is what makes it not a contradiction. Ok u want another example, how about a 55 monk using spoil victor on an Attaxe, even that 1 skill without using any others out damages a Warrior.

And this is also the reason why lately theve been complaining Aegis chains are "overpowered".

Because there using Warriors and not using Casters that could easily ignore such enchants.

For your first point, you made two SEPARATE statements. The first used except. The second, did not and included "all other casters". Thus, contradiction.

Why should I "make up" a reason, when there's plenty of proof already in the thread? You've heard of Dragon Slashers, Evisc/Exec spikes, what more do you need? In addition to the fact that the warrior's damage without skills over time adds up as well.

I said a legit example - not one build abusing game mechanics that'd be completely useless outside of PvE. A legit build would be SF or Cripslash, one that works mostly everywhere.

As far as people complaining about Aegis, yes, it is because they use warriors - because they know warriors' damage outclasses that of eles when used properly.

If everyone was running casters for damage, there'd be a lot more interrupt rangers/mesmers in GvG. Instead, we have blinds/snares/aegis chains. Because again, it seems mostly everyone but you is aware that warriors outdamage eles over time.

the_jos · Jun 11, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Let's see.
The only area where my 'spellcaster' would be overpowered would be in PvP-ish areas like AB and Fort Aspenwood.
That's because I know the Sins/Warriors/Rangers don't bring condition removers and most have bad teams.
I just put up my PvP mesmer, put anti-melee on him.
That's not because my mesmer is overpowered, but because most people (specially Sins) ignore that little hex that is called Inneptitude and attack right through it, next stop clums and clums sig and we have an almost dead Sin. Put some degen on him, remove the enchantment (bye shadow refuge) and we can wave one more sin goodbye.

You win in both AB and Aspenwood if you play as a team or at least a part of your 'group' does (and the others don't).
In more serious PvP (HA/GvG/TA) the build would be useless.
Since a lot of teams take a monk (with condition remover) I prefer to take caster hate or general shutdown/disable hexes there and not melee hate.

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 11, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Granted, it was a long time ago now, but I do recall observing a guild battle where 8 W/Mo, with no casters supporting them, won the match.

Sure, it's fun owning those noob melee characters in RA. But that's not because their class sucks, its because they do.

Sir Green Aluminum · Jun 11, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

bothersome melee: assasins, thumpers/hammer users, good warriors? What about rangers they don't cast but they're not melee either.